By - Laws

[sasha3502]

Is there anywhere somebody can show where it says that it illeagle to
have Troop By-Laws??? And if so why do most troops have them if they
are against BSA Guidelines and policy?

[Tim Howard]

Post by sasha3502
Is there anywhere somebody can show where it says that it illeagle to
have Troop By-Laws??? And if so why do most troops have them if they
are against BSA Guidelines and policy?

Some units have By-Laws and some don't. If everyone--scout, scouter,
and parent acted by using the Scout Oath and Scout Law as their guide
you wouldn't need By-Laws. Unfortunately, it tends to be the adults
that forget this.

Tim Howard CC Troop 103
Fremont, CA

[sasha3502]

But anytime a committee votes on something they make a "by-law" what
the big deal with having them written down? And again where does it
say you can't hve By-Laws???

Post by sasha3502
Is there anywhere somebody can show where it says that it illeagle to
have Troop By-Laws??? And if so why do most troops have them if they
are against BSA Guidelines and policy?

Some units have By-Laws and some don't.  If everyone--scout, scouter,
and parent acted by using the Scout Oath and Scout Law as their guide
you wouldn't need By-Laws.  Unfortunately, it tends to be the adults
that forget this.
Tim Howard CC Troop 103
Fremont, CA

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

Post by sasha3502
But anytime a committee votes on something they make a "by-law" what
the big deal with having them written down? And again where does it
say you can't hve By-Laws???

Why don't you post what these bylaws are for the group?

Do they conflict with Virtus guidelines (I thought you mentioned you were
sponsored by a Catholic Church)?

[Stan]

Post by sasha3502
Is there anywhere somebody can show where it says that it illeagle to
have Troop By-Laws??? And if so why do most troops have them if they
are against BSA Guidelines and policy?

The problem you may be running into, based on your prior post, is the
relationship between the Troop and the Chartering Organization (CO),
and how much control the CO reserves for itself and how much it will
delegate to the Troop Committee (TC).

In the Troop I've been active in, the CO is a civic organization
which, among its many activities, charters local Packs, Troops, and a
Crew. They leave the running of each Scouting Unit to its leaders and
Unit Committee, requiring only reports from them (the equivalent in
the workplace is when a subordinate is given full delegation of
authority to perform specific tasks). The CO would get involved only
if there were real problems, and would probably rely heavily on the
Unit Commissioner and other District people to help resolve them.

Now, suppose my synagogue chartered a Cub Scout Pack. Knowing how the
liaison with our current youth groups (Kadima for grades 6-8 and
United Synagogue Youth for grades 9-12) is handled, as well as how the
management of our Religious School is done, the Board of Trustees
would appoint a Pack Committee Chair (as they now appoint a Youth
Committee Chair and an Education Committee Chair), with that person
having absolute authority. For example, while the Youth Committee or
Education Committee can take a vote, the committee is actually more
like corporate America, where the Chair is the boss and thus is
individually and personally responsible for the sum total of the work,
or lack thereof, that the Committee does. I saw this years ago when I
was on the Education Committee. Unlike an elected Board of Education,
where all members are equal and where they elect their President, our
Board of Ed was put together by the Education Committee Chairman, who
was appointed by the synagogue's Board of Trustees, to support him.
He was not accountable to the people under him (and it was "under ")
on the Education Committee (equivalent to a Board of Education);
rather, his only accountability was to the Board of Trustees
(specifically, the synagogue Vice-President whose collection of
committees included the Education Committee).

As a specific example, the Pack Committee could vote to allow cooking
on Saturday (traditional Jewish Law allows only reheating using an
existing flame; no fuel can be added or deleted between 18 mins before
sunset on Friday and 42 minutes after sunset on Saturday), and the
Board of Trustees (assuming the Rabbi doesn't get to him first) would
severely reprimand the Pack CC for allowing such a violation of the
Law. They could care less that he was simply implementing a majority
decision duly voted on by the Pack Committee using procedures listed
in Roberts Rules of Order. He will be reminded on no uncertain terms
that he is the Executive and not simply the Presiding Officer, and
that he alone owns all actions that the Pack Committee carries out or
chooses not to carry out.

Perhaps what you're up against is this latter type of relationship
between the CO and the TC, which is fully permissable. Is that in
fact the case? The means, of course, that the CO could care less
about "majority decisions" made by the Pack Committee; rather, as far
as the CO is concerned, there is only one person, the Pack Committee
Chair, who is authorized to make any and all decisions, and if (s)he
wants to look to the Pack Committee for "guidance", that's fine, but
is under no obligation to be guided.

[sasha3502]

Our CO is only as interested as the Committee Chair makes them. She
runs to them or council when faced with a battle she can't win at
Committee level. Our CO is a Catholic Church. Our battle is over a set
of by-laws that she had council convince the CO to throw out. We feel
that the CO does care how the majority wants to run the troop. But the
CO Rep and CC are friends and he does not get both sides of any issue.

Post by Stan

Post by sasha3502
Is there anywhere somebody can show where it says that it illeagle to
have Troop By-Laws??? And if so why do most troops have them if they
are against BSA Guidelines and policy?

The problem you may be running into, based on your prior post, is the
relationship between the Troop and the Chartering Organization (CO),
and how much control the CO reserves for itself and how much it will
delegate to the Troop Committee (TC).
In the Troop I've been active in, the CO is a civic organization
which, among its many activities, charters local Packs, Troops, and a
Crew.  They leave the running of each Scouting Unit to its leaders and
Unit Committee, requiring only reports from them (the equivalent in
the workplace is when a subordinate is given full delegation of
authority to perform specific tasks).  The CO would get involved only
if there were real problems, and would probably rely heavily on the
Unit Commissioner and other District people to help resolve them.
Now, suppose my synagogue chartered a Cub Scout Pack.  Knowing how the
liaison with our current youth groups (Kadima for grades 6-8 and
United Synagogue Youth for grades 9-12) is handled, as well as how the
management of our Religious School is done, the Board of Trustees
would appoint a Pack Committee Chair (as they now appoint a Youth
Committee Chair and an Education Committee Chair), with that person
having absolute authority.   For example, while the Youth Committee or
Education Committee can take a vote, the committee is actually more
like corporate America, where the Chair is the boss and thus is
individually and personally responsible for the sum total of the work,
or lack thereof, that the Committee does.  I saw this years ago when I
was on the Education Committee.  Unlike an elected Board of Education,
where all members are equal and where they elect their President, our
Board of Ed was put together by the Education Committee Chairman, who
was appointed by the synagogue's Board of Trustees, to support him.
He was not accountable to the people under him (and it was "under ")
on the Education Committee (equivalent to a Board of Education);
rather, his only accountability was to the Board of Trustees
(specifically, the synagogue Vice-President whose collection of
committees included the Education Committee).
As a specific example, the Pack Committee could vote to allow cooking
on Saturday (traditional Jewish Law allows only reheating using an
existing flame; no fuel can be added or deleted between 18 mins before
sunset on Friday and 42 minutes after sunset on Saturday), and the
Board of Trustees (assuming the Rabbi doesn't get to him first) would
severely reprimand the Pack CC for allowing such a violation of the
Law.  They could care less that he was simply implementing a majority
decision duly voted on by the Pack Committee using procedures listed
in Roberts Rules of Order.  He will be reminded on no uncertain terms
that he is the Executive and not simply the Presiding Officer, and
that he alone owns all actions that the Pack Committee carries out or
chooses not to carry out.
Perhaps what you're up against is this latter type of relationship
between the CO and the TC, which is fully permissable.  Is that in
fact the case?  The means, of course, that the CO could care less
about "majority decisions" made by the Pack Committee; rather, as far
as the CO is concerned, there is only one person, the Pack Committee
Chair, who is authorized to make any and all decisions, and if (s)he
wants to look to the Pack Committee for "guidance", that's fine, but
is under no obligation to be guided.

[Stan]

Post by sasha3502
Our CO is only as interested as the Committee Chair makes them. She
runs to them or council when faced with a battle she can't win at
Committee level.

The question I'll now ask is "What kind of battles?" The reason is
that the only times I've ever seen battles are-

1. when somebody was more concerned with personal satisfaction or ego
rather than what's best for the boys, or

2. the person was a professional complainer (the 3rd category of
parent, the other two being doer and non-doer), or

3. there was a legitimate disagreement, but these were ALWAYS worked
out by the normal process of negotiation.

Post by sasha3502
Our CO is a Catholic Church. Our battle is over a set
of by-laws that she had council convince the CO to throw out. We feel
that the CO does care how the majority wants to run the troop. But the
CO Rep and CC are friends and he does not get both sides of any issue.

Unfortunately, if you as a "parents' committee" go to Council (i.e.,
your District Executive), what you may hear is that the CO makes the
rules. They might get more involved if it's presented in a way that
would indicate that the Troop may fold, but there's still the fact
that the CO owns the Troop (like in the example I gave earlier, the
Kadima and USY Chapters at my synagogue aren't independent youth
groups that meet in the synagogue; rather, they are a synagoge
activity authorized by and run by the synagogue; legally, the Troop
has the same relationship with your church).

A few other things, and this may help us understand what's going on-

1. Is the CC the mother of a current Scout or recent alumni Scout?
(What I'm looking for here is whether she was a Troop parent who
became active or was she appointed by the church from totally outside
the Troop parents?)
2. When were the by-laws adopted, and if recently, why were they
adopted? Was is some sort of power play with the CO or the CC, or
were there specific problems that the TC felt had to be formally
addressed?
3. Are there money-management issues; specifically, who can authorize
expenditures in the name of the Troop, and if so, were these a reason
for the by-laws?

[sasha3502]

1. Is the CC the mother of a current Scout or recent alumni Scout?
(What I'm looking for here is whether she was a Troop parent who
became active or was she appointed by the church from totally outside
the Troop parents?)
She is a parent with no prior training who took the job as a fill in
because our original CC was transfered.

2. When were the by-laws adopted, and if recently, why were they
adopted? Was is some sort of power play with the CO or the CC, or
were there specific problems that the TC felt had to be formally
addressed?
We are a 2+ year old troop. The By-Laws were being written when she
took over as CC. They were approved March 2007 and thrown out after
Council requested CO. One of the problem we as a committee have is
that our CC was notified in August that there were several parts of
our BL that contradicted BSA Guidelines. One was a typo. Another we
agree on. And two other are open for debate. A debate that never took
place. For 3 month our CC failed to share with us the fact that there
were problems. So when they went unaddressed council went to CO.

Ever since then we have been trying to get them reinstated and we are
told at every turn. You don't need them. BSA Forbids them. This is
coming from our CC, Council rep, district rep and CO liason. All this
is now irrelevant a decission has been made by or CO and relayed to
COL and Council rep. My guess is they are splitting our troop up.

For the founding members this really stinks cuz we are the ones who
wrote the By-Laws after a similar situation in another troop. Had they
been in place this never would have happened. I think BSA needs to
review their policies and how it is so easy for one or two people to
gain control of a troop, dispite being apposed by a majority, and run
the troop as they see fit.


3. Are there money-management issues; specifically, who can
authorize
expenditures in the name of the Troop, and if so, were these a reason
for the by-laws?
NO

Post by sasha3502
Our CO is only as interested as the Committee Chair makes them. She
runs to them or council when faced with a battle she can't win at
Committee level.

The question I'll now ask is "What kind of battles?"  The reason is
that the only times I've ever seen battles are-
1.  when somebody was more concerned with personal satisfaction or ego
rather than what's best for the boys, or
2.  the person was a professional complainer (the 3rd category of
parent, the other two being doer and non-doer), or
3.  there was a legitimate disagreement, but these were ALWAYS worked
out by the normal process of negotiation.

Post by sasha3502
Our CO is a Catholic Church. Our battle is over a set
of by-laws that she had council convince the CO to throw out. We feel
that the CO does care how the majority wants to run the troop. But the
CO Rep and CC are friends and he does not get both sides of any issue.

Unfortunately, if you as a "parents' committee" go to Council (i.e.,
your District Executive), what you may hear is that the CO makes the
rules.  They might get more involved if it's presented in a way that
would indicate that the Troop may fold, but there's still the fact
that the CO owns the Troop (like in the example I gave earlier, the
Kadima and USY Chapters at my synagogue aren't independent youth
groups that meet in the synagogue; rather, they are a synagoge
activity authorized by and run by the synagogue; legally, the Troop
has the same relationship with your church).
A few other things, and this may help us understand what's going on-
1.  Is the CC the mother of a current Scout or recent alumni Scout?
(What I'm looking for here is whether she was a Troop parent who
became active or was she appointed by the church from totally outside
the Troop parents?)
2.  When were the by-laws adopted, and if recently, why were they
adopted?   Was is some sort of power play with the CO or the CC, or
were there specific problems that the TC felt had to be formally
addressed?
3.  Are there money-management issues; specifically, who can authorize
expenditures in the name of the Troop, and if so, were these a reason
for the by-laws?

[Stan]

1.  Is the CC the mother of a current Scout or recent alumni Scout?
(What I'm looking for here is whether she was a Troop parent who
became active or was she appointed by the church from totally outside
the Troop parents?)
She is a parent with no prior training who took the  job as a fill in
because our original CC was transfered.

Did she take the appropriate training? She should've taken Fast Start
(online at http://olc.scouting.org) immediately, as well as the next
New Leader Essentials and Troop Position specific courses that are
offered.

2.  When were the by-laws adopted, and if recently, why were they
adopted?   Was is some sort of power play with the CO or the CC, or
were there specific problems that the TC felt had to be formally
addressed?
We are a 2+ year old troop. The By-Laws were being written when she
took over as CC. They were approved March 2007 and thrown out after
Council requested CO. One of the problem we as a committee have is
that our CC was notified in August that there were several parts of
our BL that contradicted BSA Guidelines. One was a typo. Another we
agree on. And two other are open for debate. A debate that never took
place. For 3 month our CC failed to share with us the fact that there
were problems. So when they went unaddressed council went to CO.
Ever since then we have been trying to get them reinstated and we are
told at every turn. You don't need them. BSA Forbids them. This is
coming from our CC, Council rep, district rep and CO liason. All this
is now irrelevant a decission has been made by or CO and relayed to
COL and Council rep. My guess is they are splitting our troop up.

And have the people been found to run the new Troops, or is it a case
where your Troop is being dissolved and attempts being made to place
the boys with existing Troops?

For the founding members this really stinks cuz we are the ones who
wrote the By-Laws after a similar situation in another troop. Had they
been in place this never would have happened. I think BSA needs to
review their policies and how it is so easy for one or two people to
gain control of a troop, dispite being apposed by a majority, and run
the troop as they see fit.

What I kind-of see from the Pack Committee specific course that I
teach, what BSA probably wants is an organization like my synagogue
would set up if we had a BSA unit. That is, the CO (i.e., the
synagogue) would choose the Committee Chair (as opposed to a parents'
Pack Committee electing their Chair) who in turn would recruit for the
support jobs and positions that report to the CC. The reason I draw
this conclusion is that the Cub Scout Position Specific course I teach
points out the functions that the CC needs to staff, and also points
out that the CO appoints the CC. It doesn't say that the Unit
Committee is a democracy to be run under Roberts Rules of Order, nor
that the CC needs to get permission from the Unit Committee to act.
Its only concern is that the CC, through the Committee, staffs
specific jobs functions (which is the way the Education Committee
worked at my synagogue, as I previously pointed out).

So what it looks like is that BSA wants a CC who is in charge of the
unit. I would also guess that your By-Laws would limit the CC's
power, and it may not be the way BSA wants things set up.

Now, there is usually a right way and wrong way of doing things, and
it looks like you feel the CC could've been more of a team player than
a dictator. What may have also happened is that she did find out
certain things at training courses or by simply "asking around" and
did what she thought she had to do to do things as BSA wanted.

3.  Are there money-management issues; specifically, who can
authorize
expenditures in the name of the Troop, and if so, were these a reason
for the by-laws?
NO

The only reason I asked this was not because of any suspicion or hint
of embezzlement, but rather because of an overspending by two Den
Leaders in the Cub Scout Pack when my wife was Treasurer (i.e., the
money was spent on the program, but the issue was whether the CC and
CM should've authorized it first; there were other ways to proceed).
Whenever I teach Pack Committee Leader Specific training, I advise
that there be a policy as to who can authorize expenditures in the
name of the Pack. I was just wondering if this had actually happened
to you, and if among other things, you were trying to put controls in
place to make sure it didn't happen again. I guess it wasn't the
case.

Sorry I can't be more supportive. I can only hope that the boys are
negatively impacted. It may very well be that BSA wants one person
clearly in charge (like my synagogue does with the Education Committee
and the Youth Committee). I haven't seen this explicitly in writing,
but from the contents of the courses I teach, this sure is implied (my
opinion).

[Stan]

BIG TYPO. A key word got left out.

Sorry I can't be more supportive.  I can only hope that the boys are NOT
negatively impacted...

[Stephen Henning]

Post by sasha3502
Our CO is only as interested as the Committee Chair makes them. She
runs to them or council when faced with a battle she can't win at
Committee level. Our CO is a Catholic Church. Our battle is over a set
of by-laws that she had council convince the CO to throw out. We feel
that the CO does care how the majority wants to run the troop. But the
CO Rep and CC are friends and he does not get both sides of any issue.

First, Scouting is not a democracy. The BSA regulations do not set up
any procedure for democratic management. The CO has ultimate control
and can remove any person that does not follow their directions.

The CC is next in line. They have authority to carry out the wishes of
the CO consistent with the rules and regulations of the BSA.

If there are any bylaws, they should be written by the Green Bar at PLC.
The PLC is the only democratic part of Scouting and it operates under
the oversight of the Scoutmaster or person the Scoutmaster designates.

The job of the committee is to select the leaders and then support them
and the PLC. A committee is not a legislative branch, it is the
operating branch. It provides transportation, advancement support, trip
support, planning support, fund raising support, and other kinds of
support.

These concepts are explained in Unit Committee Training, Leader Training
and Junior Leader Training.

[Robert Haar]

Post by sasha3502
Is there anywhere somebody can show where it says that it illeagle to
have Troop By-Laws??? And if so why do most troops have them if they
are against BSA Guidelines and policy?

What are you trying to accomplish by formalizing a set of By-Laws?

I have not seen anything prohibiting unit by-laws but I have also never seen
a real need for them. Each troop is "owned" by their CO. The CO sets the
rules within the scouting program as defined by National.

Most troops that I know of have troop handbooks that are really a collection
fo information for new scouts and their families - general information, like
where the scout office is located, and procedural details, like where you
meet for campouts and how campout costs are handled.

In your other posts, it sounds like the real issue is that there are
differences of opinion between some scout families, the CC and the CR. Even
if you had a set of by-laws, how would it help your situation?

Give us a bit more information about what are in the by-laws that you tried
to implement.

[sasha3502]

Post by Robert Haar

Post by sasha3502
Is there anywhere somebody can show where it says that it illeagle to
have Troop By-Laws??? And if so why do most troops have them if they
are against BSA Guidelines and policy?

What are you trying to accomplish by formalizing a set of By-Laws?
I have not seen anything prohibiting unit by-laws but I have also never seen
a real need for them. Each troop is "owned" by their CO. The CO sets the
rules within the scouting program as defined by National.
Most troops that I know of have troop handbooks that are really a collection
fo information for new scouts and their families - general information, like
where the scout office is located, and procedural details, like where you
meet for campouts and how campout costs are handled.
In your other posts, it sounds like the real issue is that there are
differences of opinion between some scout families, the CC and the CR. Even
if you had a set of by-laws, how would it help your situation?
Give us a bit more information about what are in the by-laws that you tried
to implement.
--
Bob Haar
BSA T-188, Rochester Hills, MI
District Advancement Committee, Ojibwa District, Clinton Valley Council

It does not matter now. The CO decided that there were irreconcilable
differences and dissolved our troop.

[Robert Haar]

Post by sasha3502
It does not matter now. The CO decided that there were irreconcilable
differences and dissolved our troop.

I am sorry to hear that this was the result. But I did suspect that personal
conflicts between some of the leaders was the problem, not lack of formal
procedures in a by-laws document. More rules would not solve that kind of
problem.

[smwalker]

Post by sasha3502

Post by Robert Haar

Post by sasha3502
Is there anywhere somebody can show where it says that it illeagle to
have Troop By-Laws??? And if so why do most troops have them if they
are against BSA Guidelines and policy?

What are you trying to accomplish by formalizing a set of By-Laws?
I have not seen anything prohibiting unit by-laws but I have also never seen
a real need for them. Each troop is "owned" by their CO. The CO sets the
rules within the scouting program as defined by National.
Most troops that I know of have troop handbooks that are really a collection
fo information for new scouts and their families - general information, like
where the scout office is located, and procedural details, like where you
meet for campouts and how campout costs are handled.
In your other posts, it sounds like the real issue is that there are
differences of opinion between some scout families, the CC and the CR. Even
if you had a set of by-laws, how would it help your situation?
Give us a bit more information about what are in the by-laws that you tried
to implement.
--
Bob Haar
BSA T-188, Rochester Hills, MI
District Advancement Committee, Ojibwa District, Clinton Valley Council

It does not matter now. The CO decided that there were irreconcilable
differences and dissolved our troop.

That is a shame. Have you talked to your District professionals about what
they are planning on doing to keep those displaced boys in Scouting? Are
there other local troops they can move to, or a prospect of another
organization willing to charter a Troop?