Eagle Project Opinions Part Deux.

[KW]

As background.... I've been around the block for a while in scouting (9th
year as an adult leader, who, at one time or another served in every single
Pack operations based position {Tiger leader-CM/CC) and attended the vast
majority of the training opportunities available at the Pack level prior to
serving the last 3 years as ASM of our Troop) However, this is my second
full month as SM and the Troop currently has 5 excellent Eagle projects
under way (Approved prior to my appointment).

I have been reading about everything I can get my hands on to try and make
sense of the "requirements" for a quality EP and like many things in
Scouting, there just isn't a plethora of "official" and/or clear-cut
documentation stemming from a National standpoint and seems to be much more
subjectivity coming out of district resources as well (Opinions do vary:-).

Thanks to Hugh for the earlier thread, there was one comment by M_CET that
really got me thinking....... "all Scouting is local".

I have been in discussions with a Life Scout about his ideas for a project
and seek your collective wisdom on not only how it relates to M_CET's
comment, but more importantly whether or not an EP should have a sense of
permanence/longevity associated with it.

The project thought is in its infancy so at this time I will just throw out
the basic premise......

We are a Troop located in the deep south and this young man has become aware
of the tragic water issues facing the Hopi/Navajo peoples of Arizona and
taken a shine to using his project as a way to help. Very admirable of him
but its his method that has be a little baffled as to its validity for
approval once it hits the Council offices.

His plan would include the natural elements of time investment, fundraising,
benefiting community (not local for sure....but I don't have a personal
issue with that), leadership/directing others, etc.

Where I question if the method serves the spirit of an EP is that rather
than something more permanent/tangible such as digging/installing a well or
even something as abstract building a group to actively take on the
politicians to try and resolve the water rights issues.....he wants to
collect money & donations and deliver/distribute a single truckload of water
to one of the Hopi/Navajo communities. I have heard many conflicting
opinions in our local/district leadership but the common theme is what
happens after a day or 2 and its all used up? Most Eagle projects around
here tend to be of the fix this, build that, cleanup so & so....with many
having a marker placed somewhere that says This ------ was built on this
date as a Eagle Scout project by John Smith of Troop XYZ" Obviously that
can't happen in this case....would it cheapen the experience for the Scout
in the long run?


Thoughts, Feedback?

KW

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:26:56 -0400, "KW"

Post by KW
The project thought is in its infancy so at this time I will just throw out
the basic premise......
We are a Troop located in the deep south and this young man has become aware
of the tragic water issues facing the Hopi/Navajo peoples of Arizona and
taken a shine to using his project as a way to help. Very admirable of him
but its his method that has be a little baffled as to its validity for
approval once it hits the Council offices.
His plan would include the natural elements of time investment, fundraising,
benefiting community (not local for sure....but I don't have a personal
issue with that), leadership/directing others, etc.
Where I question if the method serves the spirit of an EP is that rather
than something more permanent/tangible such as digging/installing a well or
even something as abstract building a group to actively take on the
politicians to try and resolve the water rights issues.....he wants to
collect money & donations and deliver/distribute a single truckload of water
to one of the Hopi/Navajo communities.

First of all there is no official BSA policy, of which I am aware,
that deals with how permanent a project must be - different strokes
for different folks. Sometimes one needs to look at the level of
benefit.

That said, one weekend of water, regardless of the extensive planning,
does not seem sufficient, although I am prepared to be swayed.

I am not sure the Scout would be successful taking on the politicians.
In fact he might have to depend on other leadership if that plan was
to be successful, thus negating his leadership to some degree.

The cost of a well might be prohibitive but it bears investigation as
an excellent augmentation.

If in doubt about a project I talk with the Scout Executive. That may
be bypassing the chain of command but I've been here longer than a
bunch of SEs and it is accepted. Most areas probably use the DAC but I
have never known who that was in our area. I would want some
responsible people on my side before I approved or disapproved the
project, even at the troop level.

Someone signs the Project Workbook. As an alternative to the above
run it by him.

Hugh

[KW]

Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:26:56 -0400, "KW"

Post by KW
The project thought is in its infancy so at this time I will just throw out
the basic premise......
We are a Troop located in the deep south and this young man has become aware
of the tragic water issues facing the Hopi/Navajo peoples of Arizona and
taken a shine to using his project as a way to help. Very admirable of him
but its his method that has be a little baffled as to its validity for
approval once it hits the Council offices.
His plan would include the natural elements of time investment, fundraising,
benefiting community (not local for sure....but I don't have a personal
issue with that), leadership/directing others, etc.
Where I question if the method serves the spirit of an EP is that rather
than something more permanent/tangible such as digging/installing a well or
even something as abstract building a group to actively take on the
politicians to try and resolve the water rights issues.....he wants to
collect money & donations and deliver/distribute a single truckload of water
to one of the Hopi/Navajo communities.

First of all there is no official BSA policy, of which I am aware,
that deals with how permanent a project must be - different strokes
for different folks. Sometimes one needs to look at the level of
benefit.
That said, one weekend of water, regardless of the extensive planning,
does not seem sufficient, although I am prepared to be swayed.
I am not sure the Scout would be successful taking on the politicians.
In fact he might have to depend on other leadership if that plan was
to be successful, thus negating his leadership to some degree.
The cost of a well might be prohibitive but it bears investigation as
an excellent augmentation.
If in doubt about a project I talk with the Scout Executive. That may
be bypassing the chain of command but I've been here longer than a
bunch of SEs and it is accepted. Most areas probably use the DAC but I
have never known who that was in our area. I would want some
responsible people on my side before I approved or disapproved the
project, even at the troop level.
Someone signs the Project Workbook. As an alternative to the above
run it by him.
Hugh

Thanks for the ideas Hugh. We have some pretty decent District resources I
will tap into before submitting anything, with this being my first pass at
this exercise, I wanted to make sure I wasn't making a glaring error in
interpretation about the elements of a solid project submission. I agree
with the fact that a day or two worth of water (even though we are talking a
significant capital investment) just doesn't resonate as a quality project.
I also have some concerns because the youth is somewhat laid back and wonder
if his Type A dad will try and step in to carry the bulk of the fundraising
and planning process behind the scenes.

Keith

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:24:43 -0400, "KW"

Post by KW

Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:26:56 -0400, "KW"

Post by KW
The project thought is in its infancy so at this time I will just throw out
the basic premise......
We are a Troop located in the deep south and this young man has become aware
of the tragic water issues facing the Hopi/Navajo peoples of Arizona and
taken a shine to using his project as a way to help. Very admirable of him
but its his method that has be a little baffled as to its validity for
approval once it hits the Council offices.
His plan would include the natural elements of time investment, fundraising,
benefiting community (not local for sure....but I don't have a personal
issue with that), leadership/directing others, etc.
Where I question if the method serves the spirit of an EP is that rather
than something more permanent/tangible such as digging/installing a well or
even something as abstract building a group to actively take on the
politicians to try and resolve the water rights issues.....he wants to
collect money & donations and deliver/distribute a single truckload of water
to one of the Hopi/Navajo communities.

First of all there is no official BSA policy, of which I am aware,
that deals with how permanent a project must be - different strokes
for different folks. Sometimes one needs to look at the level of
benefit.
That said, one weekend of water, regardless of the extensive planning,
does not seem sufficient, although I am prepared to be swayed.
I am not sure the Scout would be successful taking on the politicians.
In fact he might have to depend on other leadership if that plan was
to be successful, thus negating his leadership to some degree.
The cost of a well might be prohibitive but it bears investigation as
an excellent augmentation.
If in doubt about a project I talk with the Scout Executive. That may
be bypassing the chain of command but I've been here longer than a
bunch of SEs and it is accepted. Most areas probably use the DAC but I
have never known who that was in our area. I would want some
responsible people on my side before I approved or disapproved the
project, even at the troop level.
Someone signs the Project Workbook. As an alternative to the above
run it by him.
Hugh

Thanks for the ideas Hugh. We have some pretty decent District resources I
will tap into before submitting anything, with this being my first pass at
this exercise, I wanted to make sure I wasn't making a glaring error in
interpretation about the elements of a solid project submission. I agree
with the fact that a day or two worth of water (even though we are talking a
significant capital investment) just doesn't resonate as a quality project.
I also have some concerns because the youth is somewhat laid back and wonder
if his Type A dad will try and step in to carry the bulk of the fundraising
and planning process behind the scenes.
Keith

Seems like the time to advise him of certain things. When raising
funds it would be better if he could call for appointments and appear
in his uniform. I'm a Type A father and grandfather - and that was
required of my sons and grandsons.

Ask him for pictures of his appearances plus the before, during and
after the work. They are great for the Board.

I hope you get more opinions.

Hugh

[Stan]

Post by KW
As background.... I've been around the block for a while in scouting (9th
year as an adult leader, who, at one time or another served in every single
Pack operations based position {Tiger leader-CM/CC) and attended the vast
majority of the training opportunities available at the Pack level prior to
serving the last 3 years as ASM of our Troop) However, this is my second
full month as SM and the Troop currently has 5 excellent Eagle projects
under way (Approved prior to my appointment).
I have been reading about everything I can get my hands on to try and make
sense of the "requirements" for a quality EP and like many things in
Scouting, there just isn't a plethora of "official" and/or clear-cut
documentation stemming from a National standpoint and seems to be much more
subjectivity coming out of district resources as well (Opinions do vary:-).
Thanks to Hugh for the earlier thread, there was one comment by M_CET that
really got me thinking....... "all Scouting is local".
I have been in discussions with a Life Scout about his ideas for a project
and seek your collective wisdom on not only how it relates to M_CET's
comment, but more importantly whether or not an EP should have a sense of
permanence/longevity associated with it.

This is NOT a BSA requirement. I was ready to go to the wall with a
District Advancement Chair over this (including writing to National
asking that they order the DAC's dismissal on the grounds that this
person's refusal to approve legitimate Eagle Projects resulted in harm
to the boys).

Post by KW
The project thought is in its infancy so at this time I will just throw out
the basic premise......
We are a Troop located in the deep south and this young man has become aware
of the tragic water issues facing the Hopi/Navajo peoples of Arizona and
taken a shine to using his project as a way to help. Very admirable of him
but its his method that has be a little baffled as to its validity for
approval once it hits the Council offices....
Thoughts, Feedback?

In our Council, the approval for an Eagle Project rests with the
District Advancement Chair. The best thing for you to do is have the
Scout contact whoever provides District or Council approval for Eagle
projects and discuss the concept with that person. The worst thing
that can happen to the boy is that he prepares a proposal, gets Troop
approval, and then finds it's dead-on-arrival at District or Council
(whoever approves Eagle projects in your Council).

[Stephen Henning]

Many valid concerns were posted.

Raising money can't be an Eagle Project.

Using money to order a truck of water for a reservation doesn't show
much leadership.

Being permanent is not important. Many Eagle projects are of a
temporary nature.

The thing that I am most concerned about is whether the elders at the
reservation want a truck of water. If they do, then where does the
project show any leadership if you take out the fund raising?

I think the project is good in that it shows the young man's concern for
others, but it is bad in that he thinks he has to look many miles away
to see a need. Couldn't he talk to clergy locally and identify some
local needs he could address. It would be much more rewarding since he
could see the good he was doing.

Also, the "give a man a fish" versus "teach a man to fish" scenario also
comes in to play. I think this project would be more to make the young
man feel good rather than do much good in the grand scheme of things.

[S***@hp.com]

KW <***@windstream.net> wrote:
[...]
:
: Where I question if the method serves the spirit of an EP is that rather
: than something more permanent/tangible such as digging/installing a well or
: even something as abstract building a group to actively take on the
: politicians to try and resolve the water rights issues.....he wants to
: collect money & donations and deliver/distribute a single truckload of water
[...]
: Thoughts, Feedback?

My concern with this project is that, as I understand it, the project
consists of raising money to pay for a truckload of water, and then
contacting someone to deliver the water.

The Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, 512-927.pdf,
currently on the BSA web site says this in the section on Limitations
on page 2:

- Projects may not be a fund-raiser. Fund-raising is permitted only
for securing materials needed to carry out the project.

If I were asked to approve this project, I would refuse, because
the only work being done locally is the fundraising.

[KW]

Post by S***@hp.com
[...]
: Where I question if the method serves the spirit of an EP is that rather
: than something more permanent/tangible such as digging/installing a well or
: even something as abstract building a group to actively take on the
: politicians to try and resolve the water rights issues.....he wants to
: collect money & donations and deliver/distribute a single truckload of water
[...]
: Thoughts, Feedback?
My concern with this project is that, as I understand it, the project
consists of raising money to pay for a truckload of water, and then
contacting someone to deliver the water.
The Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, 512-927.pdf,
currently on the BSA web site says this in the section on Limitations
- Projects may not be a fund-raiser. Fund-raising is permitted only
for securing materials needed to carry out the project.
If I were asked to approve this project, I would refuse, because
the only work being done locally is the fundraising.
--
Steve Messinger
Boise, ID

Steve,

This is exactly the area of my greatest concern as most of the effort
required will be in coordinating the fundraising/donations. He already has a
supplier lined up for the product in truckload quantity, so there won't be
any physical work on this end, just the unloading and distribution effort on
delivery. I have a call put in to my district resources to float the idea
past them.

Thanks
Keith

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

Post by S***@hp.com
[...]
: Where I question if the method serves the spirit of an EP is that rather
: than something more permanent/tangible such as digging/installing a well or
: even something as abstract building a group to actively take on the
: politicians to try and resolve the water rights issues.....he wants to
: collect money & donations and deliver/distribute a single truckload of water
[...]
: Thoughts, Feedback?
My concern with this project is that, as I understand it, the project
consists of raising money to pay for a truckload of water, and then
contacting someone to deliver the water.
The Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, 512-927.pdf,
currently on the BSA web site says this in the section on Limitations
- Projects may not be a fund-raiser. Fund-raising is permitted only
for securing materials needed to carry out the project.
If I were asked to approve this project, I would refuse, because
the only work being done locally is the fundraising.
--
Steve Messinger
Boise, ID

I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion although you raise an
interesting point. Seems to me the fundraising IS for the project,
albeit not literally for materials.

Although not stated I would presume the Scouts would be advised to be
more involved in: scheduling delivery, working with the people to
insure an equitable distribution of the water, assuring security of
the truck while on the reservation, and other details.

It's not that I am supporting the project, just trying to show how a
project can be expanded to meet the requirements.

Hugh

[KW]

Post by J. Hugh Sullivan

Post by S***@hp.com
[...]
: Where I question if the method serves the spirit of an EP is that rather
: than something more permanent/tangible such as digging/installing a well or
: even something as abstract building a group to actively take on the
: politicians to try and resolve the water rights issues.....he wants to
: collect money & donations and deliver/distribute a single truckload of water
[...]
: Thoughts, Feedback?
My concern with this project is that, as I understand it, the project
consists of raising money to pay for a truckload of water, and then
contacting someone to deliver the water.
The Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, 512-927.pdf,
currently on the BSA web site says this in the section on Limitations
- Projects may not be a fund-raiser. Fund-raising is permitted only
for securing materials needed to carry out the project.
If I were asked to approve this project, I would refuse, because
the only work being done locally is the fundraising.
--
Steve Messinger
Boise, ID

I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion although you raise an
interesting point. Seems to me the fundraising IS for the project,
albeit not literally for materials.
Although not stated I would presume the Scouts would be advised to be
more involved in: scheduling delivery, working with the people to
insure an equitable distribution of the water, assuring security of
the truck while on the reservation, and other details.
It's not that I am supporting the project, just trying to show how a
project can be expanded to meet the requirements.
Hugh

I worked with him to try and design it to be less fundraiser-esque but in
the end it didn't pass muster at Council and was rejected. Wasn't so much
the economic side as it was the fact that it didn't benefit the Scouts local
community.

He is fine with the decision and has moved on to another concept.

Thanks for all the input.

KW

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 08:34:11 -0500, "KW"

Post by KW

Post by J. Hugh Sullivan

Post by S***@hp.com
[...]
: Where I question if the method serves the spirit of an EP is that rather
: than something more permanent/tangible such as digging/installing a well or
: even something as abstract building a group to actively take on the
: politicians to try and resolve the water rights issues.....he wants to
: collect money & donations and deliver/distribute a single truckload of water
[...]
: Thoughts, Feedback?
My concern with this project is that, as I understand it, the project
consists of raising money to pay for a truckload of water, and then
contacting someone to deliver the water.
The Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, 512-927.pdf,
currently on the BSA web site says this in the section on Limitations
- Projects may not be a fund-raiser. Fund-raising is permitted only
for securing materials needed to carry out the project.
If I were asked to approve this project, I would refuse, because
the only work being done locally is the fundraising.
--
Steve Messinger
Boise, ID

I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion although you raise an
interesting point. Seems to me the fundraising IS for the project,
albeit not literally for materials.
Although not stated I would presume the Scouts would be advised to be
more involved in: scheduling delivery, working with the people to
insure an equitable distribution of the water, assuring security of
the truck while on the reservation, and other details.
It's not that I am supporting the project, just trying to show how a
project can be expanded to meet the requirements.
Hugh

I worked with him to try and design it to be less fundraiser-esque but in
the end it didn't pass muster at Council and was rejected. Wasn't so much
the economic side as it was the fact that it didn't benefit the Scouts local
community.
He is fine with the decision and has moved on to another concept.
Thanks for all the input.
KW

I have been on our District Eagle Board for about 37 years and Chair
for about 30. Two of my thoughts have been: (1) do it by the book (2)
standardize and be consistent in the Council with our expectations and
requirements of Eagle candidates.

This exchange of information on the above project has, in my opinion,
helped those goals universally. It's too bad we don't have this kind
of profitable exchange more often.

Hugh

[KW]

Post by J. Hugh Sullivan

Post by KW
I worked with him to try and design it to be less fundraiser-esque but in
the end it didn't pass muster at Council and was rejected. Wasn't so much
the economic side as it was the fact that it didn't benefit the Scouts local
community.
He is fine with the decision and has moved on to another concept.
Thanks for all the input.
KW

I have been on our District Eagle Board for about 37 years and Chair
for about 30. Two of my thoughts have been: (1) do it by the book (2)
standardize and be consistent in the Council with our expectations and
requirements of Eagle candidates.
This exchange of information on the above project has, in my opinion,
helped those goals universally. It's too bad we don't have this kind
of profitable exchange more often.
Hugh

It's been a busy few months. We've had 4 Scouts running almost concurrent
Eagle Projects since we last spoke. All 4 are completed. The first has
passed his Eagle Board, 2 more are scheduled for their EBOR April 3rd and
the 4th received his final approval on the completed project this week and
is waiting on a date for the EBOR. The first and last to complete are both
staffing at National Jamboree.

Thought I'd throw a note back out here to bring you guys up to speed on the
outcome of the prior exchange. After the first project was denied, the young
man spent considerable time working with various officials in the county
trying to obtain rights to restore a Civil War Era cemetery on county school
property. He ran into one roadblock after another as no one could really
determine under who's jurisdiction the cemetery falls (for permission,
guidance, etc.) However during all of that frustration he was introduced to
several county officials that were in the midst of discussing a stalled
historic renovation. (funding and labor issues). A couple of meetings and
several phone calls later, the project is his and the community support has
been fantastic. Perseverance pays off, and the way this county project is
laid out, there could be opportunities for several of our youth to build
individual projects by taking on various aspects of rebuild/renovation
across this entire property to bring it back to its former glory.

The project makes front page news in our community.
http://www.nganews.com/content.aspx?module=ContentItem&ID=168032&MemberID=1281

KW

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:29:02 -0400, "KW"

Post by KW

Post by J. Hugh Sullivan

Post by KW
I worked with him to try and design it to be less fundraiser-esque but in
the end it didn't pass muster at Council and was rejected. Wasn't so much
the economic side as it was the fact that it didn't benefit the Scouts local
community.
He is fine with the decision and has moved on to another concept.
Thanks for all the input.
KW

I have been on our District Eagle Board for about 37 years and Chair
for about 30. Two of my thoughts have been: (1) do it by the book (2)
standardize and be consistent in the Council with our expectations and
requirements of Eagle candidates.
This exchange of information on the above project has, in my opinion,
helped those goals universally. It's too bad we don't have this kind
of profitable exchange more often.
Hugh

It's been a busy few months. We've had 4 Scouts running almost concurrent
Eagle Projects since we last spoke. All 4 are completed. The first has
passed his Eagle Board, 2 more are scheduled for their EBOR April 3rd and
the 4th received his final approval on the completed project this week and
is waiting on a date for the EBOR. The first and last to complete are both
staffing at National Jamboree.
Thought I'd throw a note back out here to bring you guys up to speed on the
outcome of the prior exchange. After the first project was denied, the young
man spent considerable time working with various officials in the county
trying to obtain rights to restore a Civil War Era cemetery on county school
property. He ran into one roadblock after another as no one could really
determine under who's jurisdiction the cemetery falls (for permission,
guidance, etc.) However during all of that frustration he was introduced to
several county officials that were in the midst of discussing a stalled
historic renovation. (funding and labor issues). A couple of meetings and
several phone calls later, the project is his and the community support has
been fantastic. Perseverance pays off, and the way this county project is
laid out, there could be opportunities for several of our youth to build
individual projects by taking on various aspects of rebuild/renovation
across this entire property to bring it back to its former glory.
The project makes front page news in our community.
http://www.nganews.com/content.aspx?module=ContentItem&ID=168032&MemberID=1281
KW

A great story - and sounds like a great candidate to carry on the
Eagle Scout tradition that so many of us embrace.

My thought about the War Between the States Cemetery would be, if no
one knew who was responsible, no one could have an official gripe
about how it was restored.

I don't recall your location but in most of the South the Sons of
Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy
maintain the War for States Rights Cemeteries.

Hugh