Discussion:
Yet Another Rank Appeal Question
(too old to reply)
Stan
2005-04-03 20:35:12 UTC
Permalink
While I've been involved in rank advancement for almost 18 years, I
never seem to run out of actual situations or "what if's" based on such
situations. Something that once came up leads me to this question,
"What exactly is appealable?" Is only a Rank Advancement "deferral"
appealable, or can individual requirements, like Scout Spirit or
Position of Responsibility, be appealed when a signoff is refused?

For example, a 17yr8mo Life Scout is involved in a "Scout Spirit"
violation that his Troop feels is disqualifying. The family feels it
isn't and plans to appeal any refusal of Eagle based on this incident.
What may be the logical scenario is to advise the boy to complete the
other Eagle requirements, and when the Scoutmaster and Troop Committee
Chairman refuse to sign the Eagle application, begin the appeal
process. Of course the reality is that the boy, having no reasonable
assurance of earning Eagle even if he does complete the remaining
requirements, will probably just throw in the towel (end result,
nothing to appeal, since he didn't complete the Eagle reqt's by age
18). To prevent this, the parents in turn ask how do they appeal, now,
the withholding of approval of the Scout Spirit requirement.

Similarly, the Position of Responsibility requirement could be another
such area. A 17yr9mo is told that Eagle is out because the Troop's
assessment is that he's served actively in a PoR for only 2 months, and
there aren't 4 months left until he's 18. Again, unless there's a
timely ruling on this requirement, the boy will probably just stop all
remaining Eagle work and 18-out.

So, can individual requirements be appealed, or must the appeal wait
until the Scout claims he finished ALL the requirements for the next
rank?

Stan Krieger
Eagle Advisor
Stephen Henning
2005-04-03 23:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan
While I've been involved in rank advancement for almost 18 years, I
never seem to run out of actual situations or "what if's" based on such
situations. Something that once came up leads me to this question,
"What exactly is appealable?" Is only a Rank Advancement "deferral"
appealable, or can individual requirements, like Scout Spirit or
Position of Responsibility, be appealed when a signoff is refused?
From the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, No. 33088E:
"Two sets of circumstances may lead to the appeal of a decision.

First, if the unit leader or unit committee does not recommend the Scout
for a board of review, or if the unit leader or unit committee does not
sign the Eagle Scout application, the Scout or other interested party
may appeal the decision at the next level.

Second, if the appropriate board of review does not recommend the
applicant for the rank advancement, the decision may be appealed to the
next higher level. The Scout, his leader, or his parents may appeal the
decision. With all appeal applications, the final decision rests with
the national Boy Scout Committee. In ascending order, levels are unit,
district, local council, and national Boy Scout Committee."
Post by Stan
For example, a 17yr8mo Life Scout is involved in a "Scout Spirit"
violation that his Troop feels is disqualifying. The family feels it
isn't and plans to appeal any refusal of Eagle based on this incident.
This is obviously appealable since it falls under the first set.
However the Scout must complete all other requirements before appealing.
Post by Stan
What may be the logical scenario is to advise the boy to complete the
other Eagle requirements, and when the Scoutmaster and Troop Committee
Chairman refuse to sign the Eagle application, begin the appeal
process. Of course the reality is that the boy, having no reasonable
assurance of earning Eagle even if he does complete the remaining
requirements, will probably just throw in the towel (end result,
nothing to appeal, since he didn't complete the Eagle reqt's by age
18). To prevent this, the parents in turn ask how do they appeal, now,
the withholding of approval of the Scout Spirit requirement.
This would not be a formal appeal, but a clarification from the Council
Advancement committee and they may get it or not get it. Some councils
are proactive on this and some are not.
Post by Stan
Similarly, the Position of Responsibility requirement could be another
such area. A 17yr9mo is told that Eagle is out because the Troop's
assessment is that he's served actively in a PoR for only 2 months, and
there aren't 4 months left until he's 18. Again, unless there's a
timely ruling on this requirement, the boy will probably just stop all
remaining Eagle work and 18-out.
So, can individual requirements be appealed, or must the appeal wait
until the Scout claims he finished ALL the requirements for the next
rank?
Not until all requirements have been submitted for approval.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to ***@earthlink.net
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman
Stan
2005-04-04 21:50:35 UTC
Permalink
What I'm seeing in Steve's reply is that-

1. There is no formal BSA process to appeal a requirement sign-off.
So in the example I gave (a formal notification to the 17yr8mo Life
Scout that because of what happened a few Saturday nights ago at a
"party", there is no way he can meet the Scout Spirit requirement), the
boy would need to complete the Eagle requirements, and begin the appeal
process only after the Scoutmaster and Troop Committee Chair refuse to
sign the Eagle Application.

2. It's basically a local option whether Council (or District) will
make a pre-determination, if requested, of a specific requirement
rejection by the Troop.

Steve- did I read your reply correctly?

Stan Krieger
Eagle Advisor
Post by Stephen Henning
Post by Stan
While I've been involved in rank advancement for almost 18 years, I
never seem to run out of actual situations or "what if's" based on such
situations. Something that once came up leads me to this question,
"What exactly is appealable?" Is only a Rank Advancement
"deferral"
Post by Stephen Henning
Post by Stan
appealable, or can individual requirements, like Scout Spirit or
Position of Responsibility, be appealed when a signoff is refused?
"Two sets of circumstances may lead to the appeal of a decision.
First, if the unit leader or unit committee does not recommend the Scout
for a board of review, or if the unit leader or unit committee does not
sign the Eagle Scout application, the Scout or other interested party
may appeal the decision at the next level.
Second, if the appropriate board of review does not recommend the
applicant for the rank advancement, the decision may be appealed to the
next higher level. The Scout, his leader, or his parents may appeal the
decision. With all appeal applications, the final decision rests with
the national Boy Scout Committee. In ascending order, levels are unit,
district, local council, and national Boy Scout Committee."
Post by Stan
For example, a 17yr8mo Life Scout is involved in a "Scout Spirit"
violation that his Troop feels is disqualifying. The family feels it
isn't and plans to appeal any refusal of Eagle based on this
incident.
Post by Stephen Henning
This is obviously appealable since it falls under the first set.
However the Scout must complete all other requirements before
appealing.
Post by Stephen Henning
Post by Stan
What may be the logical scenario is to advise the boy to complete the
other Eagle requirements, and when the Scoutmaster and Troop
Committee
Post by Stephen Henning
Post by Stan
Chairman refuse to sign the Eagle application, begin the appeal
process. Of course the reality is that the boy, having no
reasonable
Post by Stephen Henning
Post by Stan
assurance of earning Eagle even if he does complete the remaining
requirements, will probably just throw in the towel (end result,
nothing to appeal, since he didn't complete the Eagle reqt's by age
18). To prevent this, the parents in turn ask how do they appeal, now,
the withholding of approval of the Scout Spirit requirement.
This would not be a formal appeal, but a clarification from the Council
Advancement committee and they may get it or not get it. Some
councils
Post by Stephen Henning
are proactive on this and some are not.
Post by Stan
Similarly, the Position of Responsibility requirement could be another
such area. A 17yr9mo is told that Eagle is out because the Troop's
assessment is that he's served actively in a PoR for only 2 months, and
there aren't 4 months left until he's 18. Again, unless there's a
timely ruling on this requirement, the boy will probably just stop all
remaining Eagle work and 18-out.
So, can individual requirements be appealed, or must the appeal wait
until the Scout claims he finished ALL the requirements for the next
rank?
Not until all requirements have been submitted for approval.
--
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman
J. Hugh Sullivan
2005-04-05 12:29:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan
While I've been involved in rank advancement for almost 18 years, I
never seem to run out of actual situations or "what if's" based on such
situations. Something that once came up leads me to this question,
"What exactly is appealable?" Is only a Rank Advancement "deferral"
appealable, or can individual requirements, like Scout Spirit or
Position of Responsibility, be appealed when a signoff is refused?
For example, a 17yr8mo Life Scout is involved in a "Scout Spirit"
violation that his Troop feels is disqualifying. The family feels it
isn't and plans to appeal any refusal of Eagle based on this incident.
What may be the logical scenario is to advise the boy to complete the
other Eagle requirements, and when the Scoutmaster and Troop Committee
Chairman refuse to sign the Eagle application, begin the appeal
process. Of course the reality is that the boy, having no reasonable
assurance of earning Eagle even if he does complete the remaining
requirements, will probably just throw in the towel (end result,
nothing to appeal, since he didn't complete the Eagle reqt's by age
18). To prevent this, the parents in turn ask how do they appeal, now,
the withholding of approval of the Scout Spirit requirement.
Similarly, the Position of Responsibility requirement could be another
such area. A 17yr9mo is told that Eagle is out because the Troop's
assessment is that he's served actively in a PoR for only 2 months, and
there aren't 4 months left until he's 18. Again, unless there's a
timely ruling on this requirement, the boy will probably just stop all
remaining Eagle work and 18-out.
So, can individual requirements be appealed, or must the appeal wait
until the Scout claims he finished ALL the requirements for the next
rank?
Stan Krieger
Eagle Advisor
I can't answer your question - I first registered in 1938 and I've
been closely involved with BSA in several states. In all that time (50
registered years) I have never seen or heard of an appeal being made
in my areas.

Is it the times or the geography which causes appeals to be considered
and/or filed?

Hugh
Stan
2005-04-06 02:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
I can't answer your question - I first registered in 1938 and I've
been closely involved with BSA in several states. In all that time (50
registered years) I have never seen or heard of an appeal being made
in my areas.
Is it the times or the geography which causes appeals to be
considered
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
and/or filed?
In reality, I've never had an appeal go outside the Troop, and never
for the situation I described.

My question is based on the following composite situations over the
last 15 years-

1. The parents have made it a priority for junior to get Eagle, and
junior is basically doing the minimum he thinks he needs to, or less,
just to keep mommy and daddy off his back. If it were his choice, he'd
quit the Troop yesterday.

2. With 3 months left to go before he's 18, we feel he's "served
actively" for only 2 months, and so we inform him it's over, or

2a. with less than 6 months to go, there's an incident, or combination
of incidents, where we just have to tell him that he's not even trying
to live according to the Oath and Law, and so it's over.

In the few cases where we've had a 2 or 2a situation, the boy just
stopped working on Eagle, and so 18'ed out. In only one case did the
parent want any sort of meeting, and he accepted our explanation. But
in the hypothetical case I described, clearly the parents wouldn't want
their son to be subject to the uncertainty for perhaps 5 months over
whether the District or Council will reverse the Troop's rejection of
the PoR or Scout Spirit requirement, and it's a virtual certainty that
unless the boy is just about finished, he would just age out rather
than working on any remaining merit badges or completing his project
proposal.

As far as the question, in general, about appealing a rank advancement
decision, I feel that if the boy thinks he had valid grounds for
appeal, I want him to do so. He needs to learn that in the real world,
he'll often need to ask for what he earned.

Stan Krieger
Eagle Advisor
J. Hugh Sullivan
2005-04-06 13:20:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
I can't answer your question - I first registered in 1938 and I've
been closely involved with BSA in several states. In all that time
(50
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
registered years) I have never seen or heard of an appeal being made
in my areas.
Is it the times or the geography which causes appeals to be
considered
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
and/or filed?
In reality, I've never had an appeal go outside the Troop, and never
for the situation I described.
My question is based on the following composite situations over the
last 15 years-
1. The parents have made it a priority for junior to get Eagle, and
junior is basically doing the minimum he thinks he needs to, or less,
just to keep mommy and daddy off his back. If it were his choice, he'd
quit the Troop yesterday.
2. With 3 months left to go before he's 18, we feel he's "served
actively" for only 2 months, and so we inform him it's over, or
2a. with less than 6 months to go, there's an incident, or combination
of incidents, where we just have to tell him that he's not even trying
to live according to the Oath and Law, and so it's over.
In the few cases where we've had a 2 or 2a situation, the boy just
stopped working on Eagle, and so 18'ed out. In only one case did the
parent want any sort of meeting, and he accepted our explanation. But
in the hypothetical case I described, clearly the parents wouldn't want
their son to be subject to the uncertainty for perhaps 5 months over
whether the District or Council will reverse the Troop's rejection of
the PoR or Scout Spirit requirement, and it's a virtual certainty that
unless the boy is just about finished, he would just age out rather
than working on any remaining merit badges or completing his project
proposal.
As far as the question, in general, about appealing a rank advancement
decision, I feel that if the boy thinks he had valid grounds for
appeal, I want him to do so. He needs to learn that in the real world,
he'll often need to ask for what he earned.
Stan Krieger
Eagle Advisor
I understand - especially with the litigious society we see today.

As you indicate it's often the parents who need to understand.

Hugh
Stan
2005-04-07 04:46:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by Stan
As far as the question, in general, about appealing a rank
advancement
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by Stan
decision, I feel that if the boy thinks he had valid grounds for
appeal, I want him to do so. He needs to learn that in the real world,
he'll often need to ask for what he earned.
I understand - especially with the litigious society we see today.
I don't know if your reply was directed at just the paragraph I kept,
but here's why I'd want a boy to appeal if he felt he had earned the
rank.

I've been out of college almost 36 years, and at least 3 times, I felt
that either my raise was substantially below my proven value to the
company, or that I had earned a promotion that I didn't get (and worse,
wasn't even in the running for). If I hadn't complained, my boss would
have never known what I had expected, and wouldn't have given me the
chance to show I was worth what I was asking for. (I got the big raise
the following year, which never would've happened had I not complained,
because my boss would have never thought to give me the opportunity to
show I belonged in the 75th+ percentile. I eventually got one of the 2
promotions, about 2.5 years later).

I look at a rank appeal the same way. We get a better idea as to why
the boy feels he should advance, and it gives the boy practice in
selling himself, as though it were a job interview. It also helps the
boy see what happens when he disagrees with an answer of "no", and what
few options he really has.

Sure, we've had parents complain about hurting the boy's self-esteem by
turning him down, but the few times the boy appealed, it was because he
honestly believed he had met the disputed requirement.

Stan Krieger
Eagle Advisor
J. Hugh Sullivan
2005-04-07 12:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by Stan
As far as the question, in general, about appealing a rank
advancement
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by Stan
decision, I feel that if the boy thinks he had valid grounds for
appeal, I want him to do so. He needs to learn that in the real
world,
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by Stan
he'll often need to ask for what he earned.
I understand - especially with the litigious society we see today.
I don't know if your reply was directed at just the paragraph I kept,
but here's why I'd want a boy to appeal if he felt he had earned the
rank.
I've been out of college almost 36 years, and at least 3 times, I felt
that either my raise was substantially below my proven value to the
company, or that I had earned a promotion that I didn't get (and worse,
wasn't even in the running for). If I hadn't complained, my boss would
have never known what I had expected, and wouldn't have given me the
chance to show I was worth what I was asking for. (I got the big raise
the following year, which never would've happened had I not complained,
because my boss would have never thought to give me the opportunity to
show I belonged in the 75th+ percentile. I eventually got one of the 2
promotions, about 2.5 years later).
I don't think I got the promotions I deserved but I averaged 10% per
year salary increase for the first 33 of the 35 years I worked before
I chose to retire at age 59. A competitive person always wants more
and better. In truth I probably got what I deserved.
Post by Stan
I look at a rank appeal the same way. We get a better idea as to why
the boy feels he should advance, and it gives the boy practice in
selling himself, as though it were a job interview. It also helps the
boy see what happens when he disagrees with an answer of "no", and what
few options he really has.
When I was involved with various troops I didn't think there was ever
a need to appeal - and apparently the youth and parents agreed. I
believe in communication. People may not always agree but we can
always explain so they can understand if everyone is honest.
Post by Stan
Sure, we've had parents complain about hurting the boy's self-esteem by
turning him down, but the few times the boy appealed, it was because he
honestly believed he had met the disputed requirement.
I've never been in the self-esteem business. I think people either
have it or they don't - and I don't think much of anything will change
it. Real life is not in the self-esteem business either. Of course
those of us who have considerable self-esteem and ego, and have proven
ourselves many times, will never be able to understand those who lack
those characteristics.

There is no such thing as failure; there is only the time it takes to
succeed. An appeal means that someone has failed in my opinion -
probably me.

Hugh

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